Veronica Waheti Nduati

Serjeant-at-Arms, please, open the doors and draw the bars. (The doors were opened and bars drawn) Hon. Senators, we are now on the item of laying of Papers. I will give a chance to Sen. Mandago to lay the Paper as the Chairperson of the Committee on Health. PAPER LAID...

Thank you. Next Order. NOTICE OF MOTION Sen. Eddy, please, move the Notice of Motion. Technical team, my microphone seems to have a problem. Please, be on the lookout. ADOPTION OF REPORT ON PETITION ON COMPENSATION OF SUGARCANE CROP DAMAGED IN PAP/ORIANG’, SIAYA COUNTY

We are now moving to Statements pursuant to Standing Order No.53 (1) . QUESTIONS AND STATEMENTS STATEMENTS

We have several Statements on the Order Paper. In view of the earlier adjustment of the Order Paper, we will defer the Statements by the Senator for Nandi County, Sen. Cherarkey, to tomorrow. DELAYED PAYMENT OF SALARIES TO VARIOUS STAFF IN THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT OF MACHAKOS

Thank you, Senator. (Interruption of Statements) COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR VISIT TO THE SENATE BY MR. DAVID MANDUKU MICHAEL Hon. Senators, I would like to acknowledge the presence in the Speaker's Gallery this afternoon of Mr. David Manduku Michael, who is in the Senate on a courtesy call to Sen....

Thank you. Hon. Senators, I will give 10 minutes block of time to allow you to comment on the Statements that have been brought to the Floor of this House. Sen. Beatrice Akinyi, please, proceed. (Resumption of Statements)

Your time is up. Okay, proceed for one minute.

(Motion deferred)The Mover of this Motion is Sen. Karen Nyamu. In her absence, the Order is deferred. Next Order.(The Clerk-at-the-Table consulted with the Temporary Speaker)Hon. Senators, Orders No.9 to 14 have already been dispensed with. Clerk, call the next Order.

This Bill is sponsored by Sen. Cathy Mumma. In her absence, this Order is deferred. (Committee of the Whole deferred) Next Order. INSTALLATION OF CCTV CAMERAS IN ALL POLICE STATIONS, CELLS AND POLICE REPORTING DESKS (Motion deferred)The Mover of this Motion is Sen. Karen Nyamu. In her absence, the Order...

What is your request?

Clerk, can you confirm whether we have quorum in the House? (The Clerk-at-the-Table consulted with the Temporary Speaker) The House has no quorum. Serjeant-at-Arms, please, ring the Quorum Bell for five minutes. (The Quorum Bell was rung) Please, ring the Quorum Bell for another five minutes. (The Quorum Bell was...

Sen. Karen Nyamu, that is your Motion. Are you ready to move the Motion? Please proceed.

Sen. Karen Nyamu, can you please begin by moving the Motion? You have not moved the Motion. You will debate all that after you move the Motion.

Can you be guided by the clerk, please?

I am guided, Madam Temporary Speaker.

Please proceed now. INSTALLATION OF CCTV CAMERAS IN ALL POLICE STATIONS, CELLS AND POLICE REPORTING DESKS

Who is seconding? Indicate

Is there a point of order, Sen. Karen? What is the point of order?

Clerk, can you confirm whether we have quorum? (The Clerk-at-the-Table consulted with the Temporary Speaker) Ring the Quorum Bell for five minutes. (The Quorum Bell was rung) Serjeant-At-Arms, please ring the Quorum Bell again for five minutes. (The Quorum Bell was rung) Clerk, confirm whether there is quorum. (The Clerk-at-the-Table...

Madam Temporary Speaker, I have been guided by---

Sen. Cathy Mumma, which question are you reading?

Sen. Cathy, can you give me the number of the question you are reading out to the Cabinet Secretary?

Hon. Senator, I have given you directions. Go to Question No.121 and later sort out the revised edition of approved Question No.51 which is in my Order Paper. Please go to Question No. 121.

Sen. Mumma, abandon that question for now. You will sort out with the secretariat. You can ask your second Question which is No. 121.

Cabinet Secretary, you may proceed to answer. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration (Hon. Kipchumba Murkomen) : Thank you very much, Madam Temporary Speaker. In the aftermath of the 2007-2008 post-election violence, the Government expended enormous efforts and resources in order to ameliorate the unfortunate situation that Internally...

I would like to ask my supplementary question on this question please, on 121. The Temporary Speaker (Sen. Veronica Maina) : Proceed. Sen. Mumma: Hon. Cabinet Secretary, I have received your response and it does not provide the details that I asked. You have given numbers broadly of those who...

Yes, do that until you sort out the issue with the secretariat. Sen. Cathy, do you have another question? COMPENSATION OF VICTIMS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND POLICE BRUTALITY

Cabinet Secretary, you may proceed to answer. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration (Hon. Kipchumba Murkomen) : Thank you very much, Madam Temporary Speaker. In the aftermath of the 2007-2008 post-election violence, the Government expended enormous efforts and resources in order to ameliorate the unfortunate situation that Internally...

Question No. 051 Proceed.

Hon. Cabinet Secretary, you can give your supplementary answer to that question. The Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration (Hon. Kipchumba Murkomen) : It is only at this instant that I can see the motive or the objective of this question. If that is the objective, to see how...

Proceed.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Sen. Cathy, proceed to the next Question. Question No. 051 RATIO OF MALE-TO-FEMALE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICERS AND INITIATIVES FOR GBV AND FEMICIDE

Hon. Senator, your request is granted. The Question will be deferred, so that you sort out the nature of the question and the mode that you presented it to the secretariat. (Question deferred) In the actual fact, time is gone. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, I will ask you to make your...

Clerk, could you confirm if we have the quorum? (The Clerk-at-the-Table consulted with the Temporary Speaker) We can now proceed. It has been confirmed that we have quorum. Sen. Kathuri Murungi, could you, please, approach the Chair? An Hon. Senator: I have already confirmed that. Therefore, we are not repeating...

Proceed. ADOPTION OF REPORT ON IMPLEMENTATION OF THE SENATE RESOLUTION ON THE CURRENT STATE OF THE NATION

Hon. Senators, we are now at resumption of debate on The County Oversight and Accountability Bill (Senate Bill No.3 of 2024) . Sen. Beatrice Ogola, you had a balance of nine minutes. I do not know whether you still want to pursue your minutes or cede ground to another Senator...

Thank you, Sen. Mwaruma. That is the end of the debate. There are no more Senators wishing to contribute to this debate. So, I request the Mover, Sen. Olekina to reply.

Thank you, Hon. Senator for those very insightful points. The putting of the question is deferred at the convenience of Senate. (Putting of the Question on the Bill deferred) Hon. Members, I am taking the discretion from the Speaker's seat to defer Orders No.9 to No.16 because they require a...

Thank you, Sen. Ledama. Proceed, Sen. Ali Roba.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. For clarity because I was mentioned, but not in bad light, the incident of the reconciliation of the county happened long before these proceedings. I would like to know from the witness how the impeachment process ended. Was there any commotion because there is a...

Sen. Mundigi what did you want to restate because you had already asked a question?

Please, proceed to ask very briefly.

Sen. (Dr.) Murango, have you abandoned your question? It will be---

Witness, I will give you a chance, maybe five minutes to respond to all those queries because some have been repeated. Give direct answers, so that we can move on after five minutes.

Sen. (Dr.) Lelegwe Ltumbesi, what is your intervention?

Can you proceed and respond to Sen. (Dr.) Lelegwe Ltumbesi’s question?

We hope not.

There is no such prayer.

Thank you, witness. I hope you are done. We want to discharge you now, so that we can proceed to the next witness. (Mr. Elias Mutuma spoke off the record) Can you give counsel the mic, please?

Thank you. The witness is discharged. (Hon. Hillary Bosuben was stepped down)

Yes, Mr. Katwa Kigen.

Yes. Before you do that, I just want to remind you, you have one hour and 49 minutes to dispense with all your witnesses. How many more witnesses are you remaining with?

Okay. You may then proceed to call your next witness.

[The witness for the Governor (Hon. Amos Kimutai Birir), MCA, Kapkatet Ward) was ushered into the Chamber] May the witness be sworn. (The witness for the Governor (Hon. Amos Kimutai Birir), MCA, Kapkatet Ward) took the Oath) [The witness for the Governor (Hon. Amos Kimutai Birir), MCA, Kapkatet Ward) was...

Witness, can you stand near the microphone? We want you to be loud enough for the Senators to hear you.

and I am sure business in Kericho County Assembly is transacted either in Kiswahili or English. Therefore, I encourage you.(Loud consultations) It is good to give advice. Maybe they do not understand, but it is good to give advice to the young people. I am 63 years old. I am...

Proceed in the parliamentary language that you choose, either Kiswahili or English for now because of time.

Counsel for the County

Counsel, he had answered that question. You have to advance to the next question.

I have two numbers. You have two numbers. 0111 40398. This one is operating on WhatsApp and Facebook. Those operating it are my Personal Assistant and Secretary.

Thank you, witness. Counsel Katwa Kigen, do you have any re-examination for this witness?

What is your point of order, Sen. Eddy? What is your point of order, Sen. Eddy?

Can the Clerk assist Sen. Eddy? That is a special problem on his desk. The rest, I can read your request on the board. So, you will be assisted in a little while by the Clerks Assistants. Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda, do you have a question?

You saw a joint affidavit of 18 people. (Loud consultations)

He is in order. Sen. Methu, the Chair is in charge. Can you allow the Chair to run the House?

Professor, those are enough questions from you. Let us have the next Senator, Sen. George Mungai.

Thank you. Let us have Sen. Cherarkey. Ask direct questions. We are spending about five minutes on this session.

Sen. Cherarkey, pose the questions to him, and then he will answer them.

Read out the number to him, but do not cross-examine him. Let him just answer your question---

Thank you. You can proceed to answer, witness. Sen. Methu and Sen. John Nderitu will follow.

Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. May I quote Article 159 (2(d) . It states- “Justice shall be administered without undue regard to procedural technicalities.” This being a key witness, I would have wished that you allow him to speak in a language that he is most comfortable, including, putting...

It is already passed.

Next question. That one has been answered.

(Laughter)

Sen. Kinyua.

Sen. Kinyua, you are risking running out of order now because I have given direction on that issue and the witness has proceed, finished, has been cross-examined and re-examined and now, it is just clarifications. Sen. Eddy? The witness will answer together with these questions that are coming.

Sen. Beatrice Akinyi Ogola? Write down those questions and answer them together.

Witness, you can respond to those questions.

Have you finished the answers to the questions?

Sen. Seki ole Lenku.

(Loud consultations)

Sen. Beth, are you introducing new evidence to the House?

Sen. Beth, you should ask questions based on the evidence he has adduced in the House; what is put on the Table of Senate. You cannot introduce evidence from the Senate.

I have already overruled. You cannot introduce new evidence.

We will have Sen. Tabitha and then you will respond.

Can you proceed and respond to those issues, witness?

Proceed and answer those comments and questions.

Thank you, witness. Hon. Amos Birir: The ICT will show us that he knows more about these things. Thank you, Senators. I think I want to get your consensus now, we discharge this witness. We have 17 more waiting to come in. You will find a chance to ask questions...

That is okay Counsel Katwa. How you organise your case is within your discretion.

Sen. Sifuna, what is your intervention? Give Sen. Sifuna the microphone.

Maybe by way of guidance, it is their case and they have a time limitation. They should keep within the time limit they have been given by the Senate. How he chooses to direct or prosecute his case, that is upon him. We will only require him to keep within...

Proceed, but keep it within the time limit we have given you as the Senate.

Proceed.

To give a guide to that issue, so that you are reasonable and fair to your colleagues, Counsel Katwa Kigen, you will require to present your evidence in such a manner that the other counsel are able to interrogate, but you still keep within your timeline if you choose to...

Then do not call in a group of 16 and expect them to interrogate the witnesses. Whichever way you prosecute it, allow them to interrogate each of the witnesses.

I have not changed. You are still prosecuting your case, but you must allow them to interrogate each of them because it is their right.

Counsel Katwa Kigen, are you ready? We will ask the clerks to be very fast in administration of the oath. Please, proceed.

[The witnesses for the Governor (Hon. Paul Kiptoo Bii, Hon. Gabriela Chepngeno, Hon. Anita Cherono Mibey, Hon. Naaman Kipsigei Rop, Hon. Bavina Chepkurui Serem, Hon. Irine Chebet Langat, Hon. Dominic Mutai, Hon. Fancy Chepkorir Korir, Hon. Vincent Kirui, Hon. Winny Chepkoech Langat, Hon. Francis Kiplangat Terer, Hon. Opile NoelaOmollo, Hon....

Hon. Senators, I will extend the sitting by 15 minutes to allow the swearing in to finalise. The following witnesses for the Governor took the oath- Are you done with the witnesses taking Oath? Counsel Katwa, you can call the first witness for the remaining 15 minutes?

Yes, Counsel Katwa, allow your colleague to cross-examine that witness.

Proceed with the next witness.

Witness, you will respond to the questions. Do not ask the Counsel any questions. You are the one being interrogated.

You can proceed.

Hon. Senators, it is now 1.15 ADJOURNMENT Hon. Senators, it is now 1.15

Thank you, counsel. Cross- examination?

Can you reverse it for him to see the remaining time? It is 18 minutes.

Witness, can you, please, answer the question?

Sen. Mungatana, let us allow the witness to answer the question and we proceed.

That is badgering. (Loud consultations)

Do not interrupt, Hon.

Counsel, please, advance your conversation or interrogation with the witness.

Counsel, please, advance your questions? There are certain answers given by this witness.

Advance your question. I

Madam Temporary Speaker, my apologies. The question of the lawyers has been answered and now I want to know which lawyer by name. It is a different question. (Loud consultations)

Proceed.

The report is in volume five, from page 29 all the way to page 39. I want him to point us to the part of that report that addresses the issue of these IP addresses. Madam Temporary Speaker, I wish to make an observation. The witness is taking so much...

Witness, can you answer the question?

Counsel, you have a balance of two minutes to finish your cross-examination.

Counsel, your time is up. I will allow the witness to answer that question, then we proceed.

Counsel, we are constrained on time. So, I will give you five minutes.

Counsel, time is up. He is only going to give you the credentials they used.

Proceed.

Thank you. Counsel, you can proceed with re-examination.

We will take a few questions and then you will respond to them together. Sen. (Prof.) Tom Ojienda, you may proceed.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. From what I have listened to, the witness only pointed out to the absence of multi-factor authentication, lack of cloud fare, exposure of passwords, use of the .co.ke instead of

Sen. Wakoli, proceed. Then you will respond to those questions and we proceed to the next segment.

Sen. Wakoli has dropped. Sen. Okenyuri Essy, proceed.

Witness, can you proceed to respond to those queries?

Sen. Olekina Ledema.

Sen. Oketch Gicheru.

Sen. Osotsi to close the number of questions then we go for three on this side.

Can you avoid answering for the witness? You just pose the question or seek the clarification, so that you give them the benefit of answering that question.

Do not speculate. Can you pose the question to the witness?

Very well, I think your question is posed. I will give the witness time to respond to those questions. Proceed, witness. Proceed, we are coming to three questions on the majority side.

Speak into the microphone, so that your voice does not fade away.

Are you done with the responses?

He has answered--- He did not respond to your question, Sen. Osotsi?

Answer that question.

Witness, that is a crucial question. Can you answer that question?

Where was the physical

We will proceed on to the next set of questions. Sen. Kisang and Sen. Joyce, in that order.

Sen. Joyce.

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

Witness, can you respond to those questions?

Thank you. Sen. Wambua Enoch, followed by Sen. Beatrice Akinyi Ogola.

Thank you. Sen. Beatrice, you have taken out your name. Sen. Okoiti Omtatah.

Thank you, Sen. Okoiti. We will give the witness a chance to respond to those questions. To be brief, we will have the final round of questions before we close with this witness. Proceed to answer those queries and take the shortest time possible.

Sen. Chesang followed by Sen. Tabitha Keroche and Sen. Mariam. That is the last round of these questions.

I think the question has been stated. Proceed, Sen. Mariam.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I said earlier on that the benefit that we have in this House is that we have diverse professionals in this House. I happen to be one of those professionals in ICT, and I cannot sit here listening to misleading information. I do not want to contradict...

I am guiding you, so that you get what you are looking for because you cannot give evidence from the Senate. You have an intervention. Let us finish with Sen. Osotsi.

Witness, can you take it up and look it up and give an answer right away to the House on where that IP address leads you?

Very well, Madam Temporary Speaker. I was saying that because the expert will need the assistance of the IT people. They have to display that on the screen.

Sen. Osotsi, can you follow the guidance of the Chair? I have guided you correctly. Give that IP address to the witness who can give evidence before this House. You cannot give the evidence yourself. We want to hear his response. You can always cross-check before you vote, so that...

From the publicly available information, there is no location for that. It just mentions Kenya, Nairobi as the domain admin.

Madam Temporary Speaker, with a lot of respect, I think we are sitting here as a quasi-jury. Even though we have got many ICT experts here, some of us know ICT, but what we are attempting to do, I urge you, perhaps you can guide that a Senator can do...

Madam Temporary Speaker, we have been sitting here for quite a number of hours. I am not sure whether the defence or the County Assembly understand the amount of time they have. Could you, kindly, stop all these interventions? Allow the County Assembly and the Governor to finish their case....

Thank you.

Let me guide you, Sen. Ledama. The Chair is in charge. Right now, it is the Senators who are using their time. It is not the time for either the County Assembly or the Governor's time. So, it is the Senators who have raised the issues and the requests are...

We are now moving on to the ICT expert who was requested by the Senate to bring a report. Clerk, you can make sure the expert is called in. Serjeant-at-Arms, can you get the ICT expert? The question directed to Counsel Katwa Kigen.

Sorry, Madam Temporary Speaker. May I just ask one last concern from you?

Madam Temporary Speaker, the person who has been brought here to answer these charges is the Governor. Do I understand that we are not going to hear the Governor's evidence and to test it?

Counsel Ongoya, I would hope you concentrate on how you manage your case because the Counsel for the Governor has said that is the close of their case. Once they declare that, I believe they are competent in their submission to that respect.

Thank you. So, we can proceed on to the ICT expert. Hon. Senators, to ease the question time, we should avoid repetitive questions. If you repeat the questions, you will get repeated answers. Repetitive questions, repetitive answers. (An hon. Senator spoke off record) Exactly! Is the witness within the precincts...

I want you to proceed and present that report, but first of all, give your full name and the position you hold at the ICT Authority, and then present the contents of the report. You have 10 minutes to do that.

Were you notified of the people who were present at the time of undertaking this exercise?

Source IP addresses, the MAC addresses. Did you get any MAC addresses from the system?

Okay.

Well, it was not two hours, your Honour.

Granted, respond to the

You cannot do an entire audit within a day. Our letter was very clear that we target our exercise in answering the five questions. We targeted our efforts towards what activities that will give us the response to those Clerk’s questions as directed to our CEO.

Yes.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. A witness from the MCA---

Okay. So, one question.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I have to declare that the witness is my student in my other life and he is competent enough, but I want to ask one question. Philip, look at me in the eye. Are you the one who did this report? I just want that...

I know this question might have come from the counsel side, but I am going to ask it for my own consumption. Did everybody vote on the day of the voting, or otherwise, to your best knowledge? If that happened, were there people who abstained in the system, or people...

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. The matter before us and why the ICT expert had to come, is because the Governor’s side has argued that there are some MCAs who voted for others. Therefore, it is very important for the ICT expert to tell us. This MAC address is very...

Yes, I will go by the order in which they were presented. The first question was if the opposing side had their team members present. That is in affirmative. Yes, they were present. The second question was, there is an MCA who alleges that nine persons voted repetitively using IP...

Well, I captured the aspect of the team’s availability. Yes, they were available and they opted not to sign the report. When we were extracting the logs, we even had concurrence on this report at some point until they decided not to sign it. I hope that answers your question,...

You had more questions from Sen. Sifuna. They were about three.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I had the same question. I wanted to know if somebody has the username and password. We heard from one of the MCAs by the name Birir saying that his phone is not internet-enabled, but someone else works using another phone. Possibly, he forwarded the password and...

Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg your indulgence that you allow me slightly more than a minute because this is the only chance that the people whose county is contesting this matter have to speak in this House. I have questions to this expert. My first question is this; did the...

[The Temporary Speaker (Sen. Veronica Maina) left the Chair] [The Speaker (Hon. Kingi) in the Chair]